Official Long Range Thread 5.0
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Re: Official Long Range Thread 5.0
nws has trended colder with both systems next week. so have probably discounted cmc which looks to amped for the Monday system. still mixing issues for Monday but they now have front and backend snow for most off area with mix and some rain inbetween. one thing to note is that winds will be coming in from the southwest and not off the ocean and they will be light unlike today's so cold air will likely have a hard time being pushed out and should keep precip frozen for a good part off the storm away from immediate coast.
algae888- Advanced Forecaster
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Re: Official Long Range Thread 5.0
nws first call map for momday. looks to be light with about half of precip falling as snow away from imm coast.
algae888- Advanced Forecaster
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Re: Official Long Range Thread 5.0
I am def liking trends for Monday. Its going to be hard to boot the low level cold. That combined with the thermal gradient enhancement. A period of freezing rain for some (details of exactly where still unclear) is going to be a real threat however.
JB on the late week storm:
Just a brief comment to acknowledge what you all see. I wont be changing my ideas, I like this pattern for the threat of major phasing on the east coast, understand why I may be wrong, but also given the history of storms that have occurred with features out of the southwest, pulling my idea 5 days away may just be an invitation to flip flop.
JB on the late week storm:
Just a brief comment to acknowledge what you all see. I wont be changing my ideas, I like this pattern for the threat of major phasing on the east coast, understand why I may be wrong, but also given the history of storms that have occurred with features out of the southwest, pulling my idea 5 days away may just be an invitation to flip flop.
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Re: Official Long Range Thread 5.0
algae888 wrote:nws first call map for momday. looks to be light with about half of precip falling as snow away from imm coast.
Ehh they flip more than an aunt jamaima panckake. This morning they still had <1 inch even though an area of mod to heavy snow was clearly moving into the LI area. Most of LI clearly ended up with 1.5-2.0"
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sroc4- Admin
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Re: Official Long Range Thread 5.0
Is JB talking about later week storm? Euro ensembles look better than operational. Still a large spread among low locations and intensity, verbatim for Monday almost all the stamp snowmaps have snow for the area some more than a few inches and some even pretty decent for the coast but not on all, maybe a bit less than half. The later week storm has support and some good snow weenie maps even for coast but flip flop on these too long ways to go. BTW I canot believe NWS put pout a snow map 3 days ahead of time, since when do they do that?
jmanley32- Senior Enthusiast
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Re: Official Long Range Thread 5.0
so the storm Monday is one that stays far off coast but not a intense one correct. The one at end of week is a coastal
skinsfan1177- Senior Enthusiast
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Re: Official Long Range Thread 5.0
sroc, is the freezing rain a big threat? Like as in dangerous or just a minor accumulation of ice? I think this could possibly include my area if it does happen as I have seen on runs past couple of days pink on maps just north of city, and I disagree that ice storms cannot happen where I am, I have never been in a major one but def have seen small ones and one fairly big one that I told the story about a bit back. At least wind will not be a issue but enough ice and wind doesn't matter. And whomever said it about looking like a bomb in NE, yeah I have seen that lived in CT, had one once couldn't drive as threes were hang so low and block entire roads.
sroc is it possible the precip coincides with a rush hr traffic time on Monday, nothing worse than ice during a NYC commute. That is if it ends uop being ice and not snow. I am leaning more towards a ice event just inland from the city and some backend snow.
skins Monday is a overrunning event, not a coastal. later week is a possible coastal.
sroc is it possible the precip coincides with a rush hr traffic time on Monday, nothing worse than ice during a NYC commute. That is if it ends uop being ice and not snow. I am leaning more towards a ice event just inland from the city and some backend snow.
skins Monday is a overrunning event, not a coastal. later week is a possible coastal.
Last edited by jmanley32 on Fri Jan 09, 2015 4:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
jmanley32- Senior Enthusiast
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Re: Official Long Range Thread 5.0
This is a situation where interior areas may have a period of icing, absolutely. 850s seem cool enough on most models to have most places start out as frozen preicp. But with the SW fetch in the upper levels from the approaching system, 850s turn marginal for most south of NYC by 12z Monday. Yet surface temps hold on struggling to get above freezing in most places north of the Driscoll Bridge as winds are light from the the SW. On the NAM, 850s start cooling again around 18z Monday, as do surface temps as 10m winds shifts to almost due north. The Euro is similar in its progression, but a little slower with the timing. I feel this may be a event where you go from Snow to ice to maybe a period of rain for folks near NYC before back to frozen precip as the storm exits and UL temps crash again with the approaching HP. Of course as you move into the HV, NE PA and parts of CT things get whiter and more frozen, maybe all, but you also lose out on more meaningful precip. This event has a chance to trend a little cooler or even warmer depending on the amplification of the H5 ejecting. For one we have a weak surface low so the SW fetch is weak, so warming in the upper levels may be over played, and we do have a decent, slightly marginal air-mass, so models may eroding surface temps to fast also. Mesoscale models will aid in finding the tight dividing line for this event over the next few days. Folks on LI or also pretty tight with this one also. For most south of there, i hope you like mid 30s and rain.jmanley32 wrote:sroc, is the freezing rain a big threat? Like as in dangerous or just a minor accumulation of ice? I think this could possibly include my area if it does happen as I have seen on runs past couple of days pink on maps just north of city, and I disagree that ice storms cannot happen where I am, I have never been in a major one but def have seen small ones and one fairly big one that I told the story about a bit back. At least wind will not be a issue but enough ice and wind doesn't matter. And whomever said it about looking like a bomb in NE, yeah I have seen that lived in CT, had one once couldn't drive as threes were hang so low and block entire roads.
sroc is it possible the precip coincides with a rush hr traffic time on Monday, nothing worse than ice during a NYC commute. That is if it ends uop being ice and not snow. I am leaning more towards a ice event just inland from the city and some backend snow.
skins Monday is a overrunning event, not a coastal. later week is a possible coastal.
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Re: Official Long Range Thread 5.0
Quietace wrote:This is a situation where interior areas may have a period of icing, absolutely. 850s seem cool enough on most models to have most places start out as frozen preicp. But with the SW fetch in the upper levels from the approaching system, 850s turn marginal for most south of NYC by 12z Monday. Yet surface temps hold on struggling to get above freezing in most places north of the Driscoll Bridge as winds are light from the the SW. On the NAM, 850s start cooling again around 18z Monday, as do surface temps as 10m winds shifts to almost due north. The Euro is similar in its progression, but a little slower with the timing. I feel this may be a event where you go from Snow to ice to maybe a period of rain for folks near NYC before back to frozen precip as the storm exits and UL temps crash again with the approaching HP. Of course as you move into the HV, NE PA and parts of CT things get whiter and more frozen, maybe all, but you also lose out on more meaningful precip. This event has a chance to trend a little cooler or even warmer depending on the amplification of the H5 ejecting. For one we have a weak surface low so the SW fetch is weak, so warming in the upper levels may be over played, and we do have a decent, slightly marginal air-mass, so models may eroding surface temps to fast also. Mesoscale models will aid in finding the tight dividing line for this event over the next few days. Folks on LI or also pretty tight with this one also. For most south of there, i hope you like mid 30s and rain.jmanley32 wrote:sroc, is the freezing rain a big threat? Like as in dangerous or just a minor accumulation of ice? I think this could possibly include my area if it does happen as I have seen on runs past couple of days pink on maps just north of city, and I disagree that ice storms cannot happen where I am, I have never been in a major one but def have seen small ones and one fairly big one that I told the story about a bit back. At least wind will not be a issue but enough ice and wind doesn't matter. And whomever said it about looking like a bomb in NE, yeah I have seen that lived in CT, had one once couldn't drive as threes were hang so low and block entire roads.
sroc is it possible the precip coincides with a rush hr traffic time on Monday, nothing worse than ice during a NYC commute. That is if it ends uop being ice and not snow. I am leaning more towards a ice event just inland from the city and some backend snow.
skins Monday is a overrunning event, not a coastal. later week is a possible coastal.
I pretty much cant argue at all with this analysis at this point. Nice job Ryan!
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sroc4- Admin
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Re: Official Long Range Thread 5.0
I think it's time to make a thread for this event!
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Re: Official Long Range Thread 5.0
Gfs has bad news with freezing rain up to a half inch in a strip and the rest a quarter. I'll post imaget when home.
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Re: Official Long Range Thread 5.0
Mainly north and west of nyc. I'll post graphic when I get home I can't do it on my phone. Nam has about a 6 hr period in same area. I guess I was the kod I mentioned ice storm yesterday and now models show. But it's one run and things will change.
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Re: Official Long Range Thread 5.0
How do u post from ur phone I've seen frank post screenshots
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Re: Official Long Range Thread 5.0
Nam hah I figured it out sweet.
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Re: Official Long Range Thread 5.0
Huh now I can't choose a different image. Wanted post gfs frz rain total area
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Re: Official Long Range Thread 5.0
The GEFS, scoring better than the EPS of late, seem to be faster than the OP in rolling the western ridge east due to the broad scale trough spanning the NE Pac. and Aleutians. As consequence, the east coast storm gets shunned out to sea. In order to make this storm work, the Pac trough needs to slow down so the ridge maintains composure over the PNA region. OP models are trying to do that.
It looks like we can expect slight moderate by Day 10. The ridge is now over the eastern U.S., the PV shifts back into the Arctic, and there are low heights over the EPO/PNA regions. The MJO is likely in the COD at this time and the WPO is also projected to shoot positive.
Day 15 the pattern could get favorable again for colder than normal conditions. The -EPO returns along with a possible +PNA. I've been saying I don't expect high latitude blocking to develop until February, but the GEFS is making subtle progress in making that happen. Large EPO ridge could be trying to connect with a Scandanvian ridge through the Arctic. I would suspect the PV to be further south with this kind of look verbatim. Perhaps the GEFS are hinting at a pattern change that would likely go into full effect in early February.
In sum, thread the needle storm next weekend (I'm against it for now), moderation the following week, and a possible pattern change end of this month into early Feb.
Possible...so we'll see. Let's hope.
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Re: Official Long Range Thread 5.0
6z gfs..here is our storm. rain to snow verbatim
btw none of the other models have it all are well off shore.
btw none of the other models have it all are well off shore.
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Re: Official Long Range Thread 5.0
yeah i was surprised it showed this. lets see if any others start to go back west or if gfs just drank too much coffee this morning lol.
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Re: Official Long Range Thread 5.0
Good morning all
GFS shows a bomb, GEFS ??. Euro takes it out to see for Friday storm. Could this be the last hurrah for the GFS and snub Euro?
GFS
GFS H5
GFS ENS - east and weaker
Interesting points - PAC Ridge on Euro does not get as squashed as energy come not into BC but into Cali hitting the ridge in the middle not at its top giving it more time to absorb this which allows the ridge to stay somewhat amped. Atlantic side is a mess - positive NAO for one and a big one at that and not allowing for a deeper trough.
We'll discuss more this afternoon evening after the 12z runs,
GFS shows a bomb, GEFS ??. Euro takes it out to see for Friday storm. Could this be the last hurrah for the GFS and snub Euro?
GFS
GFS H5
GFS ENS - east and weaker
Interesting points - PAC Ridge on Euro does not get as squashed as energy come not into BC but into Cali hitting the ridge in the middle not at its top giving it more time to absorb this which allows the ridge to stay somewhat amped. Atlantic side is a mess - positive NAO for one and a big one at that and not allowing for a deeper trough.
We'll discuss more this afternoon evening after the 12z runs,
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Re: Official Long Range Thread 5.0
That looks like the snow is right into NYC barely but the snow is verbatim on snow total maps way to the north. But anyways the GFS took it way OTS again on 12z, para GFS has not changed much, can't ait to see what happens when new GFS is in full swing Monday. Will be too late for Monday event but should help us for the late week.
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Re: Official Long Range Thread 5.0
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Re: Official Long Range Thread 5.0
I would like to wait another day before writing off the Friday storm. The euro completely flattens the western ridge, but the GFS still has a pretty good looking one. The problem is the progressive flow propagating it east, booting all the energy out to sea and keeping the PJ and STJ separate. It's unlikely to materialize, but as long as the western ridge is there I'll remain interested.
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Re: Official Long Range Thread 5.0
Overwhelming support of a thaw beginning next weekend with low heights over the EPO, PNA, and NAO regions. So if Friday truly doesn't pan out, we'll have to wait until the very end of this month or February.
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Re: Official Long Range Thread 5.0
Frank_Wx wrote:Overwhelming support of a thaw beginning next weekend with low heights over the EPO, PNA, and NAO regions. So if Friday truly doesn't pan out, we'll have to wait until the very end of this month or February.
That model image for January 24th you showed at the meetup sure better happen, otherwise it's gonna be a shift towards wanting warmer weather. I mentioned today that the only thing worse than not much snow during the winter is when it's followed by 40s and drizzle in April and May...
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Re: Official Long Range Thread 5.0
Cant give up just yet on the Late week system but set up less than ideal. Unfort pattern screams S and E but Ill give it until I view the 00z's when I wake up Tuesday morning to officially throw in the towel, but must admit the towel is in my hand for the late week storm.
With regards to the rest of the winter I am still standing firm on the time frame after Jan 20th for the first signs of our -NAO and consequently our first real chance for significant snowfall. Prob more like after the 25th. I know I know you all might be thinking just another patiently waiting for the LR to change our pattern. I don't blame you, and to be honest it might pan out like that, but I don't think so. If you don't believe me here is Larry Cosgroves latest update on his medium and long range thoughts:
"While neither large in scope or well-organized, a storm taking shape below Galveston TX may be creating a share of weather-related problems during the next 48 hours on its way into coastal New England. This disturbance has an ample moisture fetch from both the equatorial Pacific Ocean and the Bay of Campeche, and will be riding along a surge of warm advection with a southwest flow at 500MB.
Rain now organizing in Texas will expand north and east, encountering colder air over parts of the Ohio and Tennessee Valleys into Appalachia and the Mid-Atlantic/New England states. While the Deep South may see some stronger thunderstorms, instability is marginal so multiple cases of severe weather in Dixie seem unlikely to occur. Because the strongest surge of vertical motion will be along the division between a milder (rain favoring) atmosphere and a colder (snow and ice possibilities) regime, there seems to me to be a sizable risk of travel difficulties in the cold sector of the impulse. Roughly north of a line from Rogers AR....Louisville KY....Bluefield WV....Frederick MD....Norristown PA....Union NJ....Norwalk CT....Providence RI....Waltham MA....Portsmouth NH, precipitation types will gradate from liquid to frozen. The implication is for a significant icing event in the suburbs of the Interstate 95 corridor from Washington DC to Portland ME on Sunday night and Monday. Important snow accumulations will mostly occur in elevated sections of WV....W MD....PA....C, S NY....N CT....W, C MA....S VT....S NH and ME before the system exits the U.S. east of Cape Cod MA on Monday night.
At that point, the next in a series of Arctic intrusions will take control of the Midwest and then the Northeast behind the storm. Unlike the previous cAk domains, this parcel of air will be somewhat moderated.
The ridge which has persisted over the West seems weakened now. A series of disturbances from the eastern Pacific Ocean have reduced atmospheric heights and allowed cloud formations and precipitation to infiltrate the West Coast and Intermountain Region. And while it is highly possible that a slow-moving 500MB low may trigger mountain snow and lower elevation rain and thunder to the Desert Southwest on Sunday, most of next week shapes up dry from to the left of the High Plains. The -EPO signature will still stretch from Alaska to west of Baja California on Tuesday, deflecting the storm complex situated below the Aleutian Islands.
It would appear that the risk for a significant winter storm during the middle and late portion of the new week has ended. None of the computer schemes show a prominent precipitation output after Tuesday morning. Instead, a brief cold intrusion from the Great Lakes to the Eastern Seaboard is erased next weekend, beginning what appears to be a delayed version of the January Thaw.
Due to the delays in seeing moderation (I though that the January Thaw would occur in the U.S. between January 10 - 19, but the warming may be marginal and inconsistent), questions are being raised whether the nation sees a relaxation in readings at all. Yes, the various equations are in agreement on a strong rise in temperature across much of the continent during the course of the 6 - 10 day period. But if you review the 12z and 18z model runs (operational ECMWF and GFS in particular), you can see room for doubt. The European panels, long a stalwart in showing a big warming trend (and being mostly wrong in that process, I might add....) is already introducing higher 500MB heights in western Canada with some U.S. cold advection on January 20. It may well be that the Thaw will be weaker than in previous analogs, and likely to exit at some point in the 11 - 15 day time frame.
The rundown on the winter of 2014-15 goes like this: we are under a weak El Nino, which may work into moderate range in the ENSO 3.4 sector before easing in March. A lingering +PDO signal (warm layer along the Pacific coastline form Alaska to Baja California) appears to be aiding continued development of a -EPO signature with occasional -AO and -NAO linkages (hence the big cold intrusions in November and January). Perhaps most significant is that tropical forcing is feeding formation of two critical features: a sub-Aleutian mAk vortex and a southern branch jet stream across Mexico into the western Atlantic Ocean. One favors chances for cAk intrusions east of the Continental Divide, the other potential for major winter storms along the Gulf Coast, Appalachia, and Eastern Seaboard.
It is a matter of patience for when residents of the Midwest or East Coast will see a big snow or ice event. Weather is often a chance mix of ingredients, and it would appear that the U.S. has the entire spread of puzzle pieces for something memorable, if not dangerous, in the way of wintry conditions. The recent Arctic blast is an example of what this winter, in a collective sense, could turn out to be. But we have to get through the warming part of the 6 - 10 and early 11- 15 day periods before we can read new chapters about this season.
You may have read in some corners about the stratospheric warming event and the Madden-Julian Oscillation impacts on weather. Be warned that prediction of both these events and potential surface effects of same are not very well defined, or understood. There is a vast amount of warmer reflection far above the Arctic Circle, but as of yet not much lower atmospheric reflection. Cold vortices are in retreat for now. The MJO is very impressive, edging eastward from a Phase 6 and 7 position, and clearly linked to the polar westerlies. That would seem to favor a fairly cold turn in most of North America between January.
As I see it, the longer term forecast starts off as being mild for most of the nation (though I still have concerns for the colder hints posed by the operational ECMWF and parallel GFS series). The rebuilding of the big Alaskan block should return by January 21, and the full effects downstream will get underway by January 23. This includes a sizable threat for a Colorado/Trinidad (A) storm, with snow possibilities in the Great Plains into the Great Lakes and St. Lawrence Valleys. A cold surge should be relatively complete east of the Rocky Mountains by January 26, with perhaps another impressive disturbance showing up in Mexico and Texas around January 25.
When I look at the February analog charts, I smile broadly. And if you like "real" winter weather...you will too"
With regards to the rest of the winter I am still standing firm on the time frame after Jan 20th for the first signs of our -NAO and consequently our first real chance for significant snowfall. Prob more like after the 25th. I know I know you all might be thinking just another patiently waiting for the LR to change our pattern. I don't blame you, and to be honest it might pan out like that, but I don't think so. If you don't believe me here is Larry Cosgroves latest update on his medium and long range thoughts:
"While neither large in scope or well-organized, a storm taking shape below Galveston TX may be creating a share of weather-related problems during the next 48 hours on its way into coastal New England. This disturbance has an ample moisture fetch from both the equatorial Pacific Ocean and the Bay of Campeche, and will be riding along a surge of warm advection with a southwest flow at 500MB.
Rain now organizing in Texas will expand north and east, encountering colder air over parts of the Ohio and Tennessee Valleys into Appalachia and the Mid-Atlantic/New England states. While the Deep South may see some stronger thunderstorms, instability is marginal so multiple cases of severe weather in Dixie seem unlikely to occur. Because the strongest surge of vertical motion will be along the division between a milder (rain favoring) atmosphere and a colder (snow and ice possibilities) regime, there seems to me to be a sizable risk of travel difficulties in the cold sector of the impulse. Roughly north of a line from Rogers AR....Louisville KY....Bluefield WV....Frederick MD....Norristown PA....Union NJ....Norwalk CT....Providence RI....Waltham MA....Portsmouth NH, precipitation types will gradate from liquid to frozen. The implication is for a significant icing event in the suburbs of the Interstate 95 corridor from Washington DC to Portland ME on Sunday night and Monday. Important snow accumulations will mostly occur in elevated sections of WV....W MD....PA....C, S NY....N CT....W, C MA....S VT....S NH and ME before the system exits the U.S. east of Cape Cod MA on Monday night.
At that point, the next in a series of Arctic intrusions will take control of the Midwest and then the Northeast behind the storm. Unlike the previous cAk domains, this parcel of air will be somewhat moderated.
The ridge which has persisted over the West seems weakened now. A series of disturbances from the eastern Pacific Ocean have reduced atmospheric heights and allowed cloud formations and precipitation to infiltrate the West Coast and Intermountain Region. And while it is highly possible that a slow-moving 500MB low may trigger mountain snow and lower elevation rain and thunder to the Desert Southwest on Sunday, most of next week shapes up dry from to the left of the High Plains. The -EPO signature will still stretch from Alaska to west of Baja California on Tuesday, deflecting the storm complex situated below the Aleutian Islands.
It would appear that the risk for a significant winter storm during the middle and late portion of the new week has ended. None of the computer schemes show a prominent precipitation output after Tuesday morning. Instead, a brief cold intrusion from the Great Lakes to the Eastern Seaboard is erased next weekend, beginning what appears to be a delayed version of the January Thaw.
Due to the delays in seeing moderation (I though that the January Thaw would occur in the U.S. between January 10 - 19, but the warming may be marginal and inconsistent), questions are being raised whether the nation sees a relaxation in readings at all. Yes, the various equations are in agreement on a strong rise in temperature across much of the continent during the course of the 6 - 10 day period. But if you review the 12z and 18z model runs (operational ECMWF and GFS in particular), you can see room for doubt. The European panels, long a stalwart in showing a big warming trend (and being mostly wrong in that process, I might add....) is already introducing higher 500MB heights in western Canada with some U.S. cold advection on January 20. It may well be that the Thaw will be weaker than in previous analogs, and likely to exit at some point in the 11 - 15 day time frame.
The rundown on the winter of 2014-15 goes like this: we are under a weak El Nino, which may work into moderate range in the ENSO 3.4 sector before easing in March. A lingering +PDO signal (warm layer along the Pacific coastline form Alaska to Baja California) appears to be aiding continued development of a -EPO signature with occasional -AO and -NAO linkages (hence the big cold intrusions in November and January). Perhaps most significant is that tropical forcing is feeding formation of two critical features: a sub-Aleutian mAk vortex and a southern branch jet stream across Mexico into the western Atlantic Ocean. One favors chances for cAk intrusions east of the Continental Divide, the other potential for major winter storms along the Gulf Coast, Appalachia, and Eastern Seaboard.
It is a matter of patience for when residents of the Midwest or East Coast will see a big snow or ice event. Weather is often a chance mix of ingredients, and it would appear that the U.S. has the entire spread of puzzle pieces for something memorable, if not dangerous, in the way of wintry conditions. The recent Arctic blast is an example of what this winter, in a collective sense, could turn out to be. But we have to get through the warming part of the 6 - 10 and early 11- 15 day periods before we can read new chapters about this season.
You may have read in some corners about the stratospheric warming event and the Madden-Julian Oscillation impacts on weather. Be warned that prediction of both these events and potential surface effects of same are not very well defined, or understood. There is a vast amount of warmer reflection far above the Arctic Circle, but as of yet not much lower atmospheric reflection. Cold vortices are in retreat for now. The MJO is very impressive, edging eastward from a Phase 6 and 7 position, and clearly linked to the polar westerlies. That would seem to favor a fairly cold turn in most of North America between January.
As I see it, the longer term forecast starts off as being mild for most of the nation (though I still have concerns for the colder hints posed by the operational ECMWF and parallel GFS series). The rebuilding of the big Alaskan block should return by January 21, and the full effects downstream will get underway by January 23. This includes a sizable threat for a Colorado/Trinidad (A) storm, with snow possibilities in the Great Plains into the Great Lakes and St. Lawrence Valleys. A cold surge should be relatively complete east of the Rocky Mountains by January 26, with perhaps another impressive disturbance showing up in Mexico and Texas around January 25.
When I look at the February analog charts, I smile broadly. And if you like "real" winter weather...you will too"
_________________
"In weather and in life, there's no winning and losing; there's only winning and learning."
WINTER 2012/2013 TOTALS 43.65"WINTER 2017/2018 TOTALS 62.85" WINTER 2022/2023 TOTALS 4.9"
WINTER 2013/2014 TOTALS 64.85"WINTER 2018/2019 TOTALS 14.25" WINTER 2023/2024 TOTALS 13.1"
WINTER 2014/2015 TOTALS 71.20"WINTER 2019/2020 TOTALS 6.35"
WINTER 2015/2016 TOTALS 35.00"WINTER 2020/2021 TOTALS 37.75"
WINTER 2016/2017 TOTALS 42.25"WINTER 2021/2022 TOTALS 31.65"
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Re: Official Long Range Thread 5.0
sroc4 wasn't at the get together so he doesn't understand that we banned the word patience!!!
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