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Wx Banter Thread 3.0

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Post by SENJsnowman Sat Dec 15, 2018 7:37 am

From one year ago today:

SENJsnowman wrote:Looks like I'm getting bigger flakes now and that the banding is expanding over the shore

The Shore and LI scored a quick 3-5" on a sneaky little Hanukkah storm that only the mets on this board called right. All the 'pros' had the storm south and offshore I believe.

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Post by SENJsnowman Sat Dec 15, 2018 8:06 am

HectorO wrote:
billg315 wrote:
HectorO wrote:Why does the cold weather seem to suppress moisture? As soon as temps warm up, moisture comes rushing almost every single time. And it seems to happen in this area a lot since there are other parts of the country that are very cold but always seem to get hit with snow.

There is actually a very logical answer to this and it is not just coincidence. Here is a very barebones simple answer:
First, cold air is much drier than warm air. So when it's bitterly cold the air is very dry and doesn't have as much moisture to give. But second, and just as importantly, it usually gets "below normal cold" around this region (mid-Atlantic/Northeast coast) when a nice Canadian High Pressure settles over the area. The problem is that High Pressure = nice, dry weather. So usually when it is very cold here, its because we're under the influence of a High Pressure area.  This High will keep storms to our south or east.  Often times what next happens is that the High slides off to our east, and the return flow on the backside (air flows clockwise around a High) comes up from the south bringing warmer air -- and often rain, or snow turning to rain.

If the High is positioned just right, say to our north, we can get the cold air from it, and it can still allow a storm to our south to track north and bring us snow. But the position of the High (and the timing of any storm to our south) has to be just right.  This is less of an issue in other parts of the country (i.e. the northern plains) where it is naturally colder than here to begin with. Our temperatures here, even in the dead of winter, are usually borderline for snow. Average high in January is about 38* so we really need a cold air source for snow here. But unfortunately, that cold air source sometimes is too close and too strong and it keeps everything suppressed south until it moves out and the warm air returns. Hence why we always walk the tightrope between wanting cold air, but not wanting too much cold air.

Thanks! I'm in a weird zone, further west and definitely anywhere between 5-10 degrees colder than the city at times. Last year the 7 inch storm we got late in the season was 24 inches here, so I guess it also depends where the storm is coming from. Thanks for the info!

Thanks so much for the discussion. Between the general tightrope that BillG laid out so clearly and the various micro climates and the individual features of any given storm that Hector mentioned, it seems that SO MANY things have to happen right to get decent snowfalls around here. But luckily they sometimes do...

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Post by Guest Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:28 am

This is my favorite time of year but man I gotta say that this weather after all the hype in November is really putting a damper on my spirit. Now looking forward the NWS and TWC are harping on a prolonged period of above avg warmth. rb tried to get us some snow for tomorrow but that’s winding up to be a nothing event and next storm looks to be 50 and rain. Just brutal. I hope Franks scroll is correct but man things have really gone poorly so far after so much promise and it looks to continue

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Post by amugs Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:40 am

Just like they all called for a much AN pattern this weekend and start on the 14th with temps warm and AN through xmass on Channel 4 & 7 and TWC.

Yesterday was 47* and felt like low 40's here, not much AN, Today upper 40's again, tomorrow night chance of wintry mix and Monday temps in the 30's.

The factors are there for a very good winter, we have been BN temps wise since Nov 7th and have had 8" of white gold and 8 wintry events from snow flurries to mix snow showers.


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Post by HectorO Sat Dec 15, 2018 11:05 am

syosnow94 wrote:This is my favorite time of year but man I gotta say that this weather after all the hype in November is really putting a damper on my spirit. Now looking forward the NWS and TWC are harping on a prolonged period of above avg warmth. rb tried to get us some snow for tomorrow but that’s winding up to be a nothing event and next storm looks to be 50 and rain.  Just brutal. I hope Franks scroll is correct but man things have really gone poorly so far after so much promise and it looks to continue

True, but I don't know how this is a shock for many on this forum. I mean, we've all experienced what happens when we get a long period of cold temps and snow too early, the following month becomes a warmer one. I was happy with November, but in the back of my mind I couldn't help to think that we were going to get screwed in December. Regardless of how good the pattern looked, it's not common to have two frigid month back to back. It's better to have a warmer October and November, if it means having a better December.
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Post by Guest Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:23 pm

amugs wrote:Just like they all called for a much AN pattern this weekend and start on the 14th with temps warm and AN through xmass on Channel 4 & 7 and TWC.

Yesterday was 47* and felt like low 40's here, not much AN, Today upper 40's again, tomorrow night chance of wintry mix and Monday temps in the 30's.

The factors are there for a very good winter, we have been BN temps wise since Nov 7th and  have had 8" of white gold and 8 wintry events from snow flurries to mix snow showers.


Dude. I know you are the most optimistic winter weather poster in all of humanity but CMON! 8 events? We’ve had 1. Maybe 1 and a half. You can’t count every time a snowflake falls somewhere in the tri state area an “event”. Since mid November it’s been a full month exactly of disappointment after disappointment

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Post by docstox12 Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:41 pm

Looks like a nasty day and evening tomorrow.NWS has WWA just to my west and north for up to an inch of slop.I'll be listening to the happy little pinging of frozen rain,LOL.Hopefully, a few flakes will mix in too.I'm staying positive as per Frank, Mugsy, Doc and rb, our long range crew,for the pattern change after the New Year.Today's storm followed exactly as per Doc's ocean temperature map showing the cold waters off our area.Same thing happened with the big snowstorm that missed us last week.
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Post by amugs Sat Dec 15, 2018 1:13 pm

syosnow94 wrote:
amugs wrote:Just like they all called for a much AN pattern this weekend and start on the 14th with temps warm and AN through xmass on Channel 4 & 7 and TWC.

Yesterday was 47* and felt like low 40's here, not much AN, Today upper 40's again, tomorrow night chance of wintry mix and Monday temps in the 30's.

The factors are there for a very good winter, we have been BN temps wise since Nov 7th and  have had 8" of white gold and 8 wintry events from snow flurries to mix snow showers.


Dude. I know you are the most optimistic winter weather poster in all of humanity but CMON!  8 events?  We’ve had 1. Maybe 1 and a half.  You can’t count every time a snowflake falls somewhere in the tri state area an “event”. Since mid November it’s been a full month exactly of disappointment after disappointment

YES I state fact dude - you are on an island for Christ sake in a bathtub of water - I live 20 miles N & W of NYC.

November Precipitation type
10 Graupel & Snow Flurries
15&16 Snow & Wintry Mix 7.8" No School Friday 11/16, gridlock for commute Thursday
21 Sleet & Snow Trace Snow Squall
28 Flurries
30 Snow Shower, Sleet & Rain Shower
December
8 Snow Shower
13 Snow Showers 0.25 Colder surfaces and grass

Whatever you want to call it cal it but here are the days and the outcomes I have recorded so far this season that has produced wintry precipitation. Is that better than an "event"?





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Post by sroc4 Mon Dec 17, 2018 5:40 pm

syosnow94 wrote:This will be my last post on the matter. I don’t want to upset anyone.
Scott I don’t want to go back and forth. Again you guys are great. My issue is all the cold and zero moisture. I count 15 out of 17 days below normal temps and 3 big east coast storms that brought us Zero snow. The 4th and 5th. Suppressed OTS. The big one down south suppressed again. Then this past storm which was all liquid again even areas far n and w. That’s 0/3 with 88.2% of the month so far being below normal, yet 100% of the storm being liquid or missing

THAT TO ME WITH THE OPTIMISM POSTED ON THIS BOARD BY MANY FORECASTERS FOR DECEMBER IS INCREDIBLY FRUSTRATING. The weather is no ones fault (and if you need to hear it than yes you have been pretty spot on).  And no I am not throwing in the towel


Ill tell you what for the outlook of the month so far I have taken an optimistic approach and so far ugatz!  However; if you recall for the November snow I was actually quite pessimistic and looked what happened.  Everyone got a surprise snow.  So....regarding the strat warming and the pattern evolution going forward Im sorry but its probably not going to work out.  Yes I can see where we can get a few snow chances hear and there, but SSWE rarely happen and if they do so much has to still go right, so chances are it isnt going to work out for us so don't get your hopes up.  As far as a Christmas miracle, yes I see the euro, cmc, and ukie are close but it isn't going to happen.

We Track!  Sad ... I guess

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Post by Guest Mon Dec 17, 2018 6:19 pm

Good post Scott

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Post by sroc4 Mon Dec 17, 2018 7:27 pm

syosnow94 wrote:Good post Scott


One of these days we will get together for that cocktail Jim

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WINTER 2012/2013 TOTALS 43.65"WINTER 2017/2018 TOTALS 62.85" WINTER 2022/2023 TOTALS 4.9"      
WINTER 2013/2014 TOTALS 64.85"WINTER 2018/2019 TOTALS 14.25" WINTER 2023/2024 TOTALS 13.1"
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Post by GreyBeard Mon Dec 17, 2018 7:33 pm

I hate to see a grown man cry, Scott, but would much rather prefer you telling it like it is as opposed to giving false hope.
I've always looked at the start of winter to be Dec.21st, so to me, this is late fall and winter hasn't even begun yet. I don't buy that meteorological winter of Dec.,Jan., Feb. and honestly never even heard of it 'til I joined this site. Guess I'm old school.

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Post by sroc4 Mon Dec 17, 2018 8:17 pm

Wx Banter Thread 3.0 - Page 37 Strat10


Last edited by sroc4 on Mon Dec 17, 2018 8:36 pm; edited 1 time in total

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"In weather and in life, there's no winning and losing; there's only winning and learning."
WINTER 2012/2013 TOTALS 43.65"WINTER 2017/2018 TOTALS 62.85" WINTER 2022/2023 TOTALS 4.9"      
WINTER 2013/2014 TOTALS 64.85"WINTER 2018/2019 TOTALS 14.25" WINTER 2023/2024 TOTALS 13.1"
WINTER 2014/2015 TOTALS 71.20"WINTER 2019/2020 TOTALS 6.35"
WINTER 2015/2016 TOTALS 35.00"WINTER 2020/2021 TOTALS 37.75"
WINTER 2016/2017 TOTALS 42.25"WINTER 2021/2022 TOTALS 31.65" 
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Post by sroc4 Mon Dec 17, 2018 8:33 pm

GreyBeard wrote:I hate to see a grown man cry, Scott, but would much rather prefer you telling it like it is as opposed to giving false hope.
I've always looked at the start of winter to be Dec.21st, so to me, this is late fall and winter hasn't even begun yet. I don't buy that meteorological winter of Dec.,Jan., Feb. and honestly never even heard of it 'til I joined this site. Guess I'm old school.

I always tell it how I see it.  Warm or cold, snow or no snow, right or wrong.  I try my best to give as objective of a point of view as possible.  I am a cold and snow weather weenie; however, and occasionally that bias can creep into a forecast; sometimes subliminally; without any intention at all, but ive had no problems forecasting warm or no snow when that's what my mind tells me(sometimes wrong sometimes right).  But in all honesty regarding this strat warming event on the horizon this really does look like the real deal.  If it plays out like it looks to do we will all be very happy by this time next month. Is it a lock?  Of course not...but if I was a betting man(and I am from time to time-black jacks my game) my money is on a stretch of at least two-four weeks of a pattern that will produce several decent snowfalls.  What does that mean though?  Does it mean 2009/2010 where every 2-4 days we were tracking another snow storm for weeks?  I wouldnt bet on that just yet, but that potential is on the table.  Remembe even though its on the table it doesnt mean it is a lock.  I am going to remain optimistic about it until the pattern dicates otherwise.  Unfort we have to hurry up and wait to see how the strat event shakes out between now and the 25h-28th time frame.  The time frame between Xmas and New Years will be telling regarding the first 2-3weeks of Jan.  Remember there is potential for snow during that timeframe(24th-1st) as well.  Just keep in mind the pattern will not be locked just yet before the new yyear; but rather locking in if the strat goes as planned.    

Im with you regarding the start of winter...esp for living along the coast.  Anything before I consider gravy regardless of how cold it has been.

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WINTER 2012/2013 TOTALS 43.65"WINTER 2017/2018 TOTALS 62.85" WINTER 2022/2023 TOTALS 4.9"      
WINTER 2013/2014 TOTALS 64.85"WINTER 2018/2019 TOTALS 14.25" WINTER 2023/2024 TOTALS 13.1"
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Post by HectorO Mon Dec 17, 2018 8:56 pm

This is how it starts... new pattern change date every week lol. We've seen this before. I'm a warm weather person. I rather have snow in December, because at least it's the holiday. After that there's nothing really to look forward to. This year it just seems that November was our month and December we got screwed.
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Post by SENJsnowman Wed Dec 19, 2018 7:19 am

Dry and Cold or Warm and Wet. Which ones better...or worse? Or do they both suck equally?

To me Warm and wet sucks a lot more bc warm is actually really freakin' cold! Aint nothing warm about this weekends rain to me! ha ha! I drove from the shore to philly on Sat and to Brooklyn on Sun. It was 40* rain all day both days. As sensible weather goes, that feels like COLD and wet, not warm and wet. I hate it...especially lugging around 2 little brats who just dont to seem to get the concept of my misery when getting in and out of car seats.

I kind of like dry and cold in December. I do kind of enjoy the challenge of surviving sub-freezing (defined by me as 'really freakin' cold') daytime conditions. And nothing beats sleeping snug as a bug when its actually and absurdly sub-freezing outside.

Daytime winter rain is horrible and has no saving grace. Pure misery.
Daytime winter cold has some survival/excitement thrill element to it.

Nighttime winter rain is a non-factor/mildly entertaining.
Nighttime winter cold usually (>20*) for me is fun.

My verdict Dry and Cold over (Not) Warm and Wet. Cant wait till we start vortexing!

Have a great day all!

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Post by dkodgis Wed Dec 19, 2018 7:35 am

Dry is good for a while. The mud is bad. Cold is better. Ground is friozen. I sink into the ground when I get firewood
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Post by SENJsnowman Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:04 pm

When the pattern don't deliver the goods, the natives get restless.
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Post by skinsfan1177 Thu Dec 20, 2018 9:47 am

For some reason I can't upload photos like I used to and something change
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Post by Guest Thu Dec 20, 2018 11:35 am

sroc4 wrote:CP What I should have said was Statistically speaking for most of the board coverage area there is a higher probability of sucking than not sucking; however, there have been times when it has not sucked or not sucked as bad.  Depending on your exact geographic location the level of sucking, not sucking, or not sucking as bad is relative.  This should be more clear.  


A quote from the debut publication of author SRoc titled "Weather and the Tao of Suck". Coming soon from NJSWF Publishing and available in both fine bookstores as well as bookstores that suck.

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Post by sroc4 Thu Dec 20, 2018 2:26 pm

TheAresian wrote:
sroc4 wrote:CP What I should have said was Statistically speaking for most of the board coverage area there is a higher probability of sucking than not sucking; however, there have been times when it has not sucked or not sucked as bad.  Depending on your exact geographic location the level of sucking, not sucking, or not sucking as bad is relative.  This should be more clear.  


A quote from the debut publication of author SRoc titled "Weather and the Tao of Suck". Coming soon from NJSWF Publishing and available in both fine bookstores as well as bookstores that suck.

lol!

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WINTER 2012/2013 TOTALS 43.65"WINTER 2017/2018 TOTALS 62.85" WINTER 2022/2023 TOTALS 4.9"      
WINTER 2013/2014 TOTALS 64.85"WINTER 2018/2019 TOTALS 14.25" WINTER 2023/2024 TOTALS 13.1"
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Post by rb924119 Thu Dec 20, 2018 3:01 pm

syosnow94 wrote:This is my favorite time of year but man I gotta say that this weather after all the hype in November is really putting a damper on my spirit. Now looking forward the NWS and TWC are harping on a prolonged period of above avg warmth. rb tried to get us some snow for tomorrow but that’s winding up to be a nothing event and next storm looks to be 50 and rain.  Just brutal. I hope Franks scroll is correct but man things have really gone poorly so far after so much promise and it looks to continue

I never tried to get you any snow. In fact, I said I didn’t think it would be cold enough for you. But I did say to Jman that north if I-80 and north and west of I-95 would see light to even moderate accumulations of snow, sleet, and/or ice. Here are some images to verify that forecast:

Wx Banter Thread 3.0 - Page 37 755c8110
Wx Banter Thread 3.0 - Page 37 90ec3910

Note that the first image does not show the changeover that’s occurred into the city, but light accumulations were confirmed in parts of the city by observers. If you look closely, that is also supported by the first graphic. So, this forecast DID verify as expected. I don’t know how much more explicit in outlining the threat zones and then verifying them afterwards I can be. Snow was never predicted for your backyard, man. But where it was predicted, it largely verified, and last I checked, I was literally THE ONLY person to call for ANY snow to make it to the I-95 AT ALL. I know Frank made mention for higher terrain north and west, which also verified well. So to say this was “nothing” is wrong. It was for you, but it was supposed to be. For our board, a solid third of the geographical domain saw wintry precipitation and some accumulation, and considering the overwhelming consensus that nobody was supposed to see anything (again, excluding a select couple/few opinions), makes this event even better for those that saw it.

I’m sorry if it feels as though I’m attacking you, because I’m not. I’m just getting frustrated at trying to get you to understand that your (or anybody’s) backyard is not the verification spot for the entire forum. As for the overall pattern, we have had our chances at storms and fscorsblenstorm tracks, just as projected. You cannot possibly know the exact tracks from weeks away; look at how hard it is within a few days! I’m just trying to get you to step back and see the larger picture, bud, and tonactuslly get an understanding of how meteorology works.

Just like we are excited for what's to come starting next week, we like the overall setup for significantly increased PROBABILITIES of significant snow events based on how similar patterns in previous years turned out. Is it guaranteed? NO. But relative to average, the likelihood is higher. Could they be suppressed or warm? Yes. But at this stage I’d be more concerned with suppression than anything else. The storms will likely show up, we cannot conclusively say where yet, but pattern recognition favors the Mid-Atlantic and Northeast. Hence our excitement.

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Post by Guest Thu Dec 20, 2018 4:19 pm

rb my parents are up near 1500’ in Northern Ulster County Catskills ny and they had sleet change to rain and that was it. No accumulation. Doc and CO are in Orange County basically ON rt 84 way north of 80 and 95 and just some sleet pellets mixed in. No accumulation. No one on our board to my memory recorded any accumulation. And I NEVER EXPECTED ANY IMBY

The NWS forecast busted badly as well. This storm except for Massachusetts mountains was liquid

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Post by rb924119 Thu Dec 20, 2018 5:18 pm

I picked up 2.5” at home. And I believe mugsy recorded light accumulations down by him also. Plenty of posters in other forums confirmed accumulations also, though light. And again, you’re picking individual points here. You have to look at the overall REGION. The bigger picture. All I’m trying to say Smile

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Wx Banter Thread 3.0 - Page 37 Empty Re: Wx Banter Thread 3.0

Post by Guest Thu Dec 20, 2018 5:41 pm

Mugsy records 1 sleet pellet as wintry precipitation. Lol

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Post by HectorO Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:09 pm

dkodgis wrote:Dry is good for a while. The mud is bad. Cold is better. Ground is friozen. I sink into the ground when I get firewood

Which reminds me, I tired to use my shop vac to clean up the fireplace and it wasn't clipped at the top completely and ashy fog filled the room and house. Smelled awful too.
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Post by SENJsnowman Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:08 am

Since it's me quoting The Weather Channel, this definitely goes in banter. But there's nothing funny about how spot on, once again, the pros on this board have been for the past 2 weeks (really the past 2 months). And there's also nothing funny about how much I appreciate the brilliance and the time you all share so generously!

But anyway, here is El Jefe met at TWC saying you all have been right all along:

"The current magnitude/flavor of El Niño event and expected high-latitude blocking associated with the solar minimum (and backed up by the November blocking) add up to heavily skewed odds toward a colder, stormier late-winter period," said Dr. Todd Crawford, chief meteorologist with The Weather Company.

"The stratospheric polar vortex has been taking a beating, and there are indications that a significant stratospheric warming event is coming soon, by displacement or split, which may also help to increase probabilities of the sort of high-latitude blocking that would favor a colder late-winter look," Crawford said.

"Everything is still on track for a notably cold, stormy late-winter period in the eastern and southern U.S., especially in February," Crawford said.

Link to the article below. But be warned, it's filled with unadulterated winter weenie optimismmmmmmmmmmmm.........    santa  rendeer

https://weather.com/forecast/national/news/2018-12-20-january-february-march-2019-us-temperature-outlook-the-weather

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